NY CPA Spotlight: Innovation and Recruitment Mark the Future of Accounting Profession - Part 5

Calvin Harris [00:00:00 - 00:00:25]

I think technology has allowed us to really focus on things that are a lot more interesting, a lot more engaging, that really will be more energetic. Technology also allows us to be more remote to do the work wherever we feel we can do our best selves. We're seeing that more and more firms are getting used to the concept of having their staff be wherever works best for them.

Announcer [00:00:29 - 00:00:41]

Welcome to Paychex THRIVE, a Business Podcast, where you'll hear timely insights to help you navigate marketplace dynamics and propel your business forward. Here's your host, Gene Marks.

Gene Marks [00:00:45 - 00:01:20]

Hey, everybody, it's Gene Marks and welcome back to another episode of the Paychex THRIVE podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. By the way, before we even get started, if you haven't already, sign up for our Paychex THRIVE newsletter; you'll get advice and tips and help in running your business, as well as former links to prior episodes of this podcast. I promise you it will be very much worth it. Go to paychex.com/thrive.

Calvin Harris is with us today. Calvin is the CEO of the New York State Society of CPAs. Calvin, first of all, thank you very much for joining us. Hello.

Calvin Harris [00:01:20 - 00:01:24]

Hey, thank you, Gene. I'm really glad to be here.

Gene Marks [00:01:24 - 00:01:32]

I am glad that you are here, as well. Now, Julie from Paychex told me that you're like a big runner. Is that correct? You're like a marathon guy, is that right?

Calvin Harris [00:01:33 - 00:01:49]

I am. It actually started during COVID, but I've done two marathons so far here in New York, and a bunch of half marathons. But it was admittedly a way to get out of the house when the pandemic began and just kind of stuck.

Gene Marks [00:01:50 - 00:02:15]

I always just ... So, you've done two full marathons? The full 26 miles. Okay. That is insane. Whenever I see, because we do here in Philly, like, we work with the charity and they deal with the Philly marathon, which happens in the fall. And I see the people running the half marathon, which is crazy to begin with. I see you guys running those full marathons. It just does not look good. But I guess you prepare for it all year, right?

Calvin Harris [00:02:16 - 00:02:22]

You prepare for it. Admittedly, it does not feel good when it's happening, but when it's all said and done it really is worth it.

Gene Marks [00:02:23 - 00:02:25]

Now, podcasts or music that when you're running or nothing at all?

Calvin Harris [00:02:25 - 00:02:35]

Usually music, but I gotta tell you, during a marathon, there tend to be so many people there that you turn down the music to enjoy the energy of the crowd.

Gene Marks [00:02:35 - 00:02:46]

That's cool. Yeah, that is cool. And I hear Julie was also telling - all this stuff - We were talking about you before. All the things we were talking about. She was saying that you also like funny T-shirts, as well. Is that ...

Calvin Harris [00:02:46 - 00:03:01]

I do, I do. I was this close to wearing one today, and a few of my members said I should have. But yeah, I find that, you know, accounting, I love accounting, admittedly. And I figured there's nothing wrong with having a little bit of fun.

Gene Marks [00:03:02 - 00:03:11]

I agree, and so therefore, I have to ask if you would be, if you would like to share with us maybe one funny t shirt that comes to mind that you've worn before.

Calvin Harris [00:03:11 - 00:03:24]

Sure. I think that the favorite one seems to be, and I think it's even on my LinkedIn feed, it's “LIFO the Party.” LIFO the Party seems to be one of my, my more popular ones.

Gene Marks [00:03:24 - 00:03:27]

That is an awful joke. I just have to tell you.

Calvin Harris [00:03:28 - 00:03:28]

That's great.

Gene Marks [00:03:28 - 00:03:40]

That only ones that accountants will understand. And that is absolutely terrible and hilarious, as well. LIFO the Party. I don't even know if LIFO is still practiced anymore. I don't have any clients that use LIFO.

Calvin Harris [00:03:41 - 00:03:47]

You know, I can't, I can't recall the last time I saw someone actually doing LIFO, but yeah, I remember.

Gene Marks [00:03:47 - 00:04:25]

It's a really complicated calculation to do that back in my, my days with inventory. And now ... by the way, for all of you guys that are not account Lifo, last in, first out, it's a method of accounting for inventory as opposed to first in, first out, Fifo and all. You know, we can get into the weeds on this accounting stuff, but I think we're going to lose our entire audience if we do that. Let's talk about the New York State Society of CPAs. Now, you have a very unique organization that you're running.

Now, before we dig into the demographics of it, you're the CEO of New York State Society CPA. How long have you been doing this and how did you get the job?

Calvin Harris [00:04:26 - 00:05:04]

Yeah, let's see. In about a month, I'll be two years into the job, and I moved into the role, actually, from industry. I myself am a CPA. I'm licensed here in New York and in Maryland, and I spent the bulk of my career in, especially in not-for-profit organizations, but I began in public accounting and worked as consulting, did some entrepreneurial stuff. So, I've seen, I'll say I've seen all parts of the accounting profession. So, I'd like to think that my own background feeds a lot into my comfort and passion for speaking for the profession.

Gene Marks [00:05:04 - 00:05:13]

No doubt. Well, clearly you can connect to your members being a CPA yourself and you've had that experience. Did you run any nonprofits beforehand, or did you have any of that kind of managerial experience?

Calvin Harris [00:05:13 - 00:05:28]

Yeah, I was a chief financial officer just before I came here. I was at the National Urban League as their CFO, as well as a number of CFO roles in Maryland, particularly in the DC and Baltimore area. So, quite a few.

Gene Marks [00:05:28 - 00:05:34]

Have you found being a CFO to be much different than being the CEO of a nonprofit?

Calvin Harris [00:05:34 - 00:06:26]

Quite a bit different. Well, I'll say when you're the CFO, you, of course, need to be strategic. You should be strategic, and you're paying attention to the numbers in terms of what you're doing. But I found as a CFO, I often was very focused on managing costs. Even if I was thinking about revenue, I would always think, okay, let's manage the costs. Let's make sure we've got these things under control.

As CEO, you really don't have the luxury of just thinking about one side of the ledger. More accounting humor. You have to think about everything holistically, think about everything strategically. There are some things that I would consider as CEO that I probably would have never pursued as CFO, because as CEO, I'm like, well, this is what's going to benefit us over the line. And I will admit, when you become CEO, you start thinking of costs as investments a lot more than expenses.

Gene Marks [00:06:27 - 00:06:50]

Yeah, it's actually interesting that you bring that point up. Like, I'm a treasurer of a nonprofit, and my job is to be like, the jerk who says no, and we have an executive director, and she's like, well, we need to do this and we need to do that. It really is a different type of role, and you have to have the personality for it. Do you a CFO at the, at the society?

Calvin Harris [00:06:50 - 00:07:14]

I do. I do. We have a CFO who's been with us for well over a decade. I think maybe even closer to 15 or 20 years. And, you know, I admittedly don't envy him having, being the CFO of a CPA association with a CPA who's a CEO. So, he's surrounded by us, so ... But, yeah, we have a CFO here, as well.

Gene Marks [00:07:14 - 00:07:51]

Yeah, that is, that is definitely brutal. And being the CEO of a, of this type of a nonprofit, this, you know, it's a state chapter, is like, it's different than others in a sense. I mean, there's so many nonprofits out there where people that are in your role, like, their primary job is fundraising. You know, I mean, they're going right from what you know, whereas I'm assuming in your society, like, obviously everybody has revenue challenges, but you've got, the bulk of your revenues coming in are through membership, and then people getting CP, getting education, conferences, things that are like this, selling products, right?

Calvin Harris [00:07:51 - 00:07:51]

That's correct.

Gene Marks [00:07:51 - 00:08:00]

Do you spend any amount of your time on fundraising for CPA society, or is that just really not a major, your major priority?

Calvin Harris [00:08:01 - 00:08:41]

There is still some focus on that, mainly because as organizations have grown, we found that just being reliant upon dues isn't necessarily the model that's ideal. You have to think a little bit beyond that. Now, in the case of New York state, we have a scholarship fund, our Moynihan Scholarship fund, where we provide scholarships and support to students. So, we do a lot of fundraising for that. That's a 501(c)(3) versus the (c)(6), both tax exempt entities with the society is. So, because of those charitable arms, particularly on the scholarship side, there is a bit of fundraising that we still have to do.

Gene Marks [00:08:41 - 00:09:33]

How do you deal with the challenges of being a New Yorker? I mean, the state society, you have a unique society, because I'll give you an example. So, again, I'm from Philadelphia. We have the Pennsylvania Institute of Certified Public Accountants in our state. We've got Philly and Pittsburgh. It's not. How can I say this? Philly is not that much different than Pittsburgh, which is not much different than the rest of the state. I mean, there are some differences, but New York, to me, seems like a different animal. Am I wrong?

Like, there's, like, new. There's, like, New York City and then the rest of the state, you know? And I feel like if you're a CPA in New York City, you've got different issues that you're dealing with than if you're a CPA in Albany or, you know, Schenectady. So, how do you deal with that?

Calvin Harris [00:09:33 - 00:11:30]

Yeah, I do think there's something to that. I think because so many of our members, even upstate, are at larger firms, I think a lot of the issues end up being a bit similar. But to your point, I do think that New York state, and certainly New York City, is its own thing. I've been here about five years now, but I'm also a transplant from Maryland. I grew up just outside of Washington, D.C.

So, first, I've been here long enough to know that since I wasn't born here, went to school here, calling myself a New Yorker will get me in trouble. But I will say that there is something unique about New York there is. The passion here is very different than I've seen anywhere else. The drive is really strong here. One thing you don't have to worry about a New Yorker ... You don't have to worry about what they're thinking because they'll tell you. Roughly 75% of our members are in New York City, the five boroughs or Long island, or where I am here in Westchester county, which 25% are north of their upstate. But that 25% is still a large area. That 25% would still be larger than most state CPA societies. And a lot of it's rural. So, we have really unique needs because we need to meet a very packed urban area, New York City, the biggest city in the country, while also geographically an enormous area, even though we've got very big cities like Buffalo. And you mentioned Albany, our state capital, but it is very unique needs.

Now, part of the way we're able to do that is that we're broken down into chapters. We have 14 chapters around the state, which allows us to meet people individually where they are. So, in my role, of course, I end up at all of the chapters at one point or another.

[00:11:31 - 00:11:45]

But we find that having those local chapters, having that local touchpoint, ends up being one of the main ways that people connect. We find that it's either through your local chapter or one of our 50 some odd committees are where people really touch bases with the organization.

Gene Marks [00:11:45 - 00:12:28]

Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, it's funny. It's not that way with the entire country. I mean, you take different issues. The federal government tries to implement its laws across the entire country, then you realize it's a big, big country. Sometimes local is better. And I think that, yeah, it makes the perfect sense in New York state because there's so many different issues depending on where CPAs are located. What if you're a CPA in New York state, how is your life different? How is your practice different than your counterparts not in New York state? You know, somebody that's practicing in the Midwest or down south unique about being a CPA in New York?

Calvin Harris [00:12:28 - 00:13:37]

Yeah. Well, you know, this partially goes back to the last point, because I would say your experience may very much depend on what part of the state you're in. One of the things we'll see, like if you think of Buffalo or western New York, which borders states like Pennsylvania, we often find that there'll be people partnering between those two states. You know, here in New York City, the five boroughs, you'll often have people partnering with people in New Jersey or Connecticut and Albany they may be partnering with people in Massachusetts. Up in the Adirondacks, you'll have Vermont.

So, in so many cases, what we end up finding is that the geography really makes a huge difference. New York City, of course, with this being literally a global city, there's very few organizations of scale that don't have some sort of either headquarters or presence here. So, that alone makes New York City just its own thing in terms of the sort of challenges that a CPA must face. But, while the challenges upstate may be a little different, I don't think they're any less challenging. It's just in some cases, the scale may be a little different.

Gene Marks [00:13:38 - 00:14:01]

So, Calvin, across the country, our profession has had challenges recruiting people and bringing people to our firms, and it's the number one issue in your state. Like every other state, it's same thing in the Big Four. I talked to my friends and colleagues that work in those firms, and they're all struggling with the same thing. Give me some of your thoughts on recruiting into the CPA profession.

Calvin Harris [00:14:01 - 00:14:05]

Yeah, well, you know, this topic alone could be a whole conversation.

Gene Marks [00:14:05 - 00:14:07]

We have 2 hours to spend. Go ahead.

Calvin Harris [00:14:08 - 00:15:14]

So, here we go. Well, I think there are a few things to keep in mind here. First, whenever I have a chance to talk to students, I still say, despite what you may be seeing or hearing or feeling, I honestly think this is one of the best times to be an accountant. I think it's the best time, certainly in my lifetime, to join the profession. So, I became, let's see, I graduated from college over 30 years ago. I've been a CPA 25ish years, and there are things that I did when I started my career at Arthur Andersen. Back when there was a big five, it was big six when I graduated college. But there are things that I did at Arthur Andersen that you wouldn't dream of having a younger staff person do now.

Why? Because technology makes it kind of a waste of time. So, in my mind, technology has allowed us to make the work even more interesting. Instead of, we talked a little earlier about doing inventory. I'm sure we could compare inventory stories. One of my favorite ones involves frozen chickens on New Year's Eve. I'll just let that sit there.

Gene Marks [00:15:14 - 00:15:19]

You can't just bring that up and not go into a little bit more context there.

Calvin Harris [00:15:20 - 00:15:42]

Well, I'll say this. Someone had to count the chickens, and the best way to count frozen chicken was to climb onto the top of a pallet and do some sampling. It was one of the more interesting inventories I've ever done in my career. But that's also an inventory that no one would do now, because, of course, you have technology, making it far easier.

Gene Marks [00:15:42 - 00:15:55]

So, Calvin, wait ... let me interrupt you for a second. So, you're trying to recruit kids into the accounting profession with a story about counting chickens on New Year's Eve. Is that your plan? How did that work out?

Calvin Harris [00:15:55 - 00:16:07]

Well, I'll say this is me saying what you don't have to do, instead of popping your champagne on a pallet of frozen chicken, you don't have to do that anymore.

Gene Marks [00:16:08 - 00:16:10]

Okay, I got you now. I got you now.

Calvin Harris [00:16:10 - 00:17:53]

But I think technology has allowed us to really focus on things that are a lot more interesting, a lot more engaging, that really will be more energetic. Technology also allows us to be more remote, to do the work wherever we feel we can do our best selves. We're seeing that more and more firms are getting used to the concept of having their staff be wherever works best for them.

There, of course, are some limitations sometimes. Sometimes there just is very little replacement for actually being there in person. But more often than not, we find people leveraging technology. Now, what that still means, though, is that the accounting profession really needs to do a much, much better job of speaking our own story of us controlling the narrative on how great this profession can be, and the exciting things that you can do with a career in accounting.

As I sit here as the CEO of the oldest CPA society, the state where the CPA credential was created, I never would have dreamed of doing this when I graduated from college. It never would have even popped in my head. But no doubt, because I'm a CPA, and because of the things that I was able to do with that CPA, the opportunities came. And I think, just like me, a person that becomes a CPA today will find themselves positioned well to do things that even they haven't dreamt of.

So, I think the relevancy of the profession is critical. I think the stories that we tell, telling better stories is critical. You know, we're talking now shortly after the income tax deadline, and for a lot of my colleagues, for a lot of my members, this was a very, very busy time. That always happens. But those are usually controllable, controllable times, and that's not the norm.

[00:17:54 - 00:18:44]

So, in so many cases, we also need to make sure that as accountants, as CPAs, that we aren't living too far into our war stories. I talk about my frozen chickens, but I also would say that that's something I wouldn't want someone to have to do, and I don't think anyone have to do that anymore.

So, I think over time, we're going to get there. I'm still excited. And, you know, the CPA exam has recently changed to make it a little more relevant to what people are doing. I'm seeing more and more firms thinking about more creative ways to engage younger professionals. And I think as we keep doing those things and we keep focusing on how great this profession can be, I really think we'll see some more positive movement.

Gene Marks [00:18:44 - 00:19:21]

As a CPA yourself, what are your thoughts on the exam and the CPE requirements and the ability to become a CPA now? It was different when you and I were younger. I'm assuming it's the same thing in New York. For me, it's like, I think we needed, like, something like, I don't know, 80 credits in college, and then, you know, we had to do, like, two years public practice, sit for the exam any period of time, then you become a CPA. Now it's, you know, the number of credits required are higher, and the, you know, the exam itself, now the CPE requirements are more stringent as well. Do you think, do you think the profession's gone too far?

Calvin Harris [00:19:22 - 00:21:43]

Well, I think the goal is to make sure there's still rigor in the profession, which I can certainly appreciate. I think one of the challenges is always making sure that we're balancing the need for rigor to whether we're putting too much challenge out there. Now, one thing I do want to correct a little bit was that it was 120 hours for your degrees. And right now, the predominant is 150 hours, which is essentially the equivalent of a master's degree or bachelor's, plus 30 hours. And you will find countless arguments for and against the 150.

What I would say is that where we can make sure that there's a benefit in those additional hours, I think we're doing a good thing, but we also have to make sure that as we think about and we continue to move forward with those hours, that we've not created any barriers to people who want to be in the profession. One of the challenges that we do see is that a person coming out of school now and see that an accountant is making less than people in other areas. I think that, as much as anything, can be a driver to choose otherwise, am I going to choose to take an additional year of school or take this job where I'm going to make money? I got to admit, as someone who needed a lot of scholarships and a bunch of student loans to graduate, that would have been a tough choice for me.

So, I don't necessarily sit on the side of saying, hey, we need to adjust the 150. I'm not quite there, admittedly, but I do have concerns that we don't create any barriers to people moving forward because that's what really, really troubles me, is that whenever I come up across a person saying, you know what? I want to be a CPA, but ... Or I want to become an accountant, but ... And that's where organizations, you know, like mine, where we have scholarships, but it's an industry-wide thing to where we need to be focused on making sure that we're making accounting as accessible as possible. Now, when I say accessible, some people misread that to think to lower the bar. I don't think we have to lower the bar at all. I took the CPA exam. It was very, very difficult. But at the same time, we don't need to create any arbitrary or needless roadblocks.

Gene Marks [00:21:44 - 00:21:51]

The 150-hour requirement that you mentioned is relatively new. It's over the past few years at this point.

Calvin Harris [00:21:51 - 00:21:53]

It's almost. I think it's almost 20 years old, actually.

Gene Marks [00:21:53 - 00:21:54]

Is it that old? Oh, my God.

Calvin Harris [00:21:54 - 00:21:55]

Yeah, I think so.

Gene Marks [00:21:56 - 00:22:52]

I mean, I found it as a parent. I found I was a little resentful of it. I mean, my son's a CPA. He had to spend an extra year, you know, in college and do that. And then, you know, then there was the argument as well that, you know, about the compensation part of it. I mean, we were, you and I were earning less as first year CPAs than a lot of people that went right to Wall Street or took other jobs. It's always been that way. And I always felt like, you know, yeah, that's because, you know, you put in your time, you know what I mean, and get your education, and then there's plenty of time in your life to make your money. But there's a point of your life where you're making that investment in yourself. But it has gotten harder, that's number one, because now you're making kids stay in college longer. And then also, attitudes have changed. You know, I just. You know, I think younger, younger people out of college now want something different from their profession and from their work than maybe that we were expecting when we were that age, as well, you know?

Calvin Harris [00:22:53 - 00:23:50]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's something to that. The reality is that technology has made things so accessible, and I think that's a good thing. But I gotta admit, if I'm coming out of college or if I'm in college and I see all these opportunities to be an entrepreneur at that age, doing things that I could possibly do from my dorm room, it's a hard thing to pass up. Now, I do think that the numbers bear out, and I believe the numbers bear this out, that over time, even if a person starts on a lower end, they end up making up that gap over time as a CPA. But even if that's the case, it's still a matter of ... I know when I was in my early 20s, I wasn't necessarily thinking about what things might be when I was a middle-aged man. I mean, heck, even as a middle-aged man, I don't always think far enough.

Gene Marks [00:23:51 - 00:23:53]

I can't believe that you're a middle-aged man.

Calvin Harris [00:23:53 - 00:23:57]

It's a tough thing to say. Yeah, but the gray proves it, right?

Gene Marks [00:23:57 - 00:24:40]

Yeah. That is funny. That is funny. So, where do we go from here with this profession? I mean, we clearly, we have these challenges with recruitment. We've got a lot of technology that's coming in that's really going to change things around. I mean, I feel like we're on the cusp of an enormous change in this specific, you know, in this profession, no doubt, right. I mean, you mentioned the technology alone. Like, growing up, we've always talked about, you know, everything's always been about compliance and doing tax returns, doing audits. And you and I are right now, we're at this stage right now where this, you know, with AI, a lot of this stuff really is going to be addressed and automated.

Calvin Harris [00:24:40 - 00:24:41]

No question. No question.

Gene Marks [00:24:42 - 00:24:44]

What do you think accountants need to be thinking about going forward?

Calvin Harris [00:24:45 - 00:25:59]

They need to be future focused. They have got to be focused on the future. I mean, you mentioned AI, but here are the things that we know are affecting the profession right now. AI, outsourcing, private equity, fractional, you know, gig-econ work. And those are just four things right away that are fundamentally different on things.

I spent a number of years as a fractional CFO. That was 15 years ago. Yeah, 15 years ago that I was doing that work. Every time I said what I did, I had described in detail what I did because people couldn't get their head around the thought, "Wait a minute, you're my CFO, but you're not here all the time." Not anymore, though it's commonplace.

When I was doing that work, I would get random emails periodically from overseas. Now, it's commonplace. And all of the larger firms and not so large firms have significant presence in other countries outside of the U.S. And we're not talking about unskilled workers by any stretch. We're talking about CPAs themselves that are in other countries that are providing that work.

[00:26:00 - 00:27:03]

So, I think what that does mean, though, is, again, much like AI, much like the technology, is I think the best CPAs and the smartest CPAs are going to use those tools to leverage themselves to make sure they're focusing on the high-value and high-dollar work. As it turns out, there is absolutely an opportunity to have a more fruitful and economically beneficial career as a CPA now, because so much of the other work that you used to have to do, you could let technology take care for you, you could let outsourcing take care for you, you yourself could bring on a fractional worker to help you do that work to where you can yourself, as a CPA, focus on that thing where you are the market and that you are the one that can drive things. So, that's part of why I think it's still so interesting, is that those CPAs that are able to figure out how to do that and do that effectively are going to be so far ahead of everyone else.

Gene Marks [00:27:03 - 00:27:40]

Couldn't agree with you more. Calvin, final question, and it's a great conversation. You're clearly dealing with a lot of CPAs that are in private industry and also in public practice as well. You have a lot of smaller firms, a lot of independent CPAs. I'm kind of curious, without naming names, like, are there anybody in your chapter or the society overall CPAs that are doing cool stuff, that you're like, man, that guy's really woman, whatever, that person's really ... they figured it out. You know what I mean? They're on a track.

I'm just kind of curious if you can maybe give an example, somebody that comes to mind. Again with that, you don't have to name names, but I just.

Calvin Harris [00:27:40 - 00:28:43]

Yeah, no, I gotta admit, as you ask that question, about a dozen names and a dozen faces popped in my head. So, I'll just give a few. I'm finding that some of, some of our most interesting and fascinating work is happening in some of the newer, newer areas. We have a digital assets committee to where people are coming through the best and creative ways to be accountants and CPAs in that area. We also see it within our cannabis committee, again, a newer area in New York state, and then also our sustainability committee.

I see within those three areas, especially, you'll see some of the more creative and groundwork, groundbreaking, cutting edge work happening, because there are areas that, I mean, heck, none of those three areas existed when I was a CPA. Well, one of them, I guess, existed, you know, in a different way ... for some, but those areas are all we're seeing, just really fascinating work happening.

Gene Marks [00:28:43 - 00:28:54]

Calvin Harris is the CEO of the New York State Society of Certified Public Accountants. Calvin, thank you so much for joining us today. I love your insight and it's great to hear what's going on in New York.

Calvin Harris [00:28:54 - 00:28:56]

Great. Thank you, Gene. Appreciate it.

Gene Marks [00:28:56 - 00:29:10]

Everybody, you've been watching and or listening to the Paychex THRIVE podcast again. If you would like to keep up with any advice or tips and older episodes of this podcast, please sign up for our newsletter. Go to paychex.com/thrive. Again, my name is Gene Marks. Thanks for joining. We'll see you again next time. Take care.

Gene Marks [00:29:10 - 00:29:47]

Do you have a topic or a guest that you would like to hear on THRIVE? Please let us know. Visit payx.me/thrivetopics and send us your ideas or matters of interest.

Also, if your business is looking to simplify your HR, payroll, benefits, or insurance services, see how Paychex can help. Visit the resource hub paychex.com/ worx. That's W-O-R-X. Paychex can help manage those complexities while you focus on all the ways you want your business to thrive. I'm your host, Gene Marks, and thanks for joining us. Till next time, take care.

Announcer [00:29:50 - 00:29:54]

This podcast is property of Paychex, Incorporated, 2024. All rights reserved.